Rebecca Kent (intro)

JLL, the global real estate services firm (and the company I happen to work for), recently moved its central Sydney operations to a new office at the Lendlease-owned Salesforce Tower. The office is everything research is telling us that workplaces need to be: it’s hospitality-driven, sustainable, flexible, tech-enabled, it encourages collaboration, plus there’s barista-made coffee, beer on tap and views to die for. My guest on this episode is Christina Khoo, who designed the premium space. Imagine the pressure of designing an office for your own colleagues – and your own boss. She lets us in on exactly what that was like.

I’m Rebecca Kent, host of this JLL Perspectives podcast.  

Rebecca Kent 

Christina Khoo, welcome to JLL’s Perspectives podcast.

Christina Khoo

Thank you.

Rebecca Kent

It’s lovely to have you here. So, we're sitting in the media suite …

Christina Khoo

I know, it’s very fancy, isn’t it?

Rebecca Kent

… the media suite of JLL’s new office at 180 George Street.

Christina Khoo

Yes, my baby.

Rebecca Kent

Absolutely your baby, which is why we're talking to you, actually. Now, you've been incredibly involved in creating this amazing new office that we have at 180 George. I thought it would be a really interesting idea … because uniquely, you are … JLL has its own design team.

Christina Khoo

That’s right.

Rebecca Kent

And so effectively, you have been designing this office for your own colleagues.

Christina Khoo

Yes.

Rebecca Kent

Your own employer.

Christina Khoo

Which comes with its own kind of pressure

Rebecca Kent 

You don't say? Precisely, so I'm really intrigued to understand what some of the, I guess the processes, maybe some of the challenges, what they were, you found. It must have been a tough gig. But, the office has come up remarkably. So, how has it been received so far?

Christina Khoo

I tell you what. It's always nerve-wracking when you finish the project and you hand it over and you never know how the client’s going to receive it or use the space. But you're actually getting feedback every single day because you come into the office. And I think it's been great. We've been able to take heaps of clients through this space, and you definitely get the ‘wow’ experience. But a lot of people have been coming to me and saying, ‘I get to see people that I never really got to see on other levels when we moved from our previous space at 420 George Street’. So I think that's been the biggest plus being able to chat to your colleagues that sometimes you just forget that they're even in the same building.

Rebecca Kent  

Yeah, absolutely. And I can vouch for that. I've seen faces that I, you know, for five years had spoken to over Teams calls.

Christina Khoo

Exactly.

Rebecca Kent

And they’ve been on, you know, the next floor in our old office, and I'm bumping into them all the time.

Christina Khoo

Especially on the staircase. Like, our central staircase I think was a big win. Even though the void is Very large for the space that we're in. I think using that staircase moving up and down, you naturally you physically bump into people, which is great. And then you just end up chatting and going, ‘excuse me, I'm trying to get past’. And you're like, ‘no, this is this is exactly what I want’. And on day one … so Leanne Noh, who is another senior designer that we worked with. When we design that staircase, we were debating where does it go? How do we work through it? We didn't want to use that void. And I said, ‘No, no, no, we want it to be able to be used as a tool, not just going up and down the stairs’. And on day one, it was fabulous because people were just literally gathering in the center stair just chatting, holding a cup of coffee. I mean, for me, I have to walk very slowly, when I walk down the stairs. I’m just a clumsy person.

Rebecca Kent 

I'm so nervous I'm going to go tumbling. All the women in their heels.

Christina Khoo

I know! That's me.

Rebecca Kent 

Because yeah, it is a huge space. And presumably, the debate is that space could have been functional

Christina Khoo

Could have been, yeah. So that was provided to us by the base build. So, Lendlease, when we went for these floors (so we're on floors, 25, 26 and 27) … and those large voids (they're about 57 square metres, which is massive NLA when you think about it) that was given to us. And so it was definitely a challenge. But I think we made it work for our benefit.

Rebecca Kent 

For sure. And NLA, is net lettable area. For those who don't know.

Christina Khoo

A lot of acronyms at JLL.

Rebecca Kent 

There are, yeah. I’ve spent many a year trying to solve them. So staircase, definitely for me, as someone who works here, is a highlight. And not least, because you can stand on one of the landings and you can see all the way up to the next floor and all the way down and all the people moving around.

Christina Khoo

Yep. I think seeing activity is also one of the biggest pluses, I think moving in. I think often when you go into an office, you never know who's in, or you don't even know how many people are in. And I think seeing that activity and having that buzz does encourage people to come into the office and see colleagues. I also think having the barista on level 27 … so our concierge floor has been a big win. I mean, you're offering coffee to all staff, complimentary. And so the lineup is often long. But you often just bump into people whilst waiting. And instead of going out, you're in the office, having chats and meeting people. There's a lot of overlap between the clients that we have within JLL. But often our teams are quite insular sometimes. So, you'll be chatting to somebody and saying, ‘Oh, I'm working on XYZ’ and you ‘Oh! I know that person’. And you're like, ‘let's chat, let's come together’, which is definitely a very big plus for ‘One JLL’

Rebecca Kent 

And that's the magic of the barista.

Christina Khoo

Absolutely. I mean, we're highly caffeinated here. We've got the barista on 27 and two Brew Hub coffee machines, which are those very cool under-bench coffee machines on 26 and 25. So we’re very well caffeinated here.

Rebecca Kent 

Definitely. I hope JLL never takes that barista away. That's another thing I'm slightly nervous about. I've seen how many trips people are making.

Christina Khoo

Oh, my gosh, my caffeine consumption, I feel, has like gone up. 1,000% But it's fine. I'm addicted to coffee anyway. It's all right.

Rebecca Kent 

And actually, that's another thing that I've noticed. Clients on level 27, that are coming in as guests of some of our colleagues here, are mingling with the rest of JLL.

Christina Khoo

Absolutely. And I think being able to provide that hospitality to clients, but not even just clients. It could just be visitors from consultants or even your friends. I've seen people bring their friends and their kids to show off how great the office is.

Rebecca Kent 

Are we allowed to bring our friends?! I invited mine.

Christina Khoo

I was here on the weekend when we were doing professional photos. And I was like, ‘who is down there on level 25?’ and one of the guys had brought his son in because he wanted to show it off. And I was like, ‘That's very sweet’. But definitely, I think the barista was the big win. And just being able to sit and have a really casual meeting and not feel like you're being sold something or being forced to do a deal straight away and you can be guided.

Hospitality focus was a really big driver in this new fit-out. So JLL, you read all our research papers, you can see all the stuff about having that human experience and that really adds to it because you want clients to feel warm and invited and welcomed and we didn't have that at 420. A lot of the feedback that we got when we did surveys asking people, ‘What if you had a wish list of what you wanted?’ a lot of people just want to be able to bring clients in. And that to me is being house proud. So, we want people to be want people to feel house proud and bring people in, which I think has been working, which is great.

Rebecca Kent 

Definitely. And I love that concept of being house proud. Because it's not something I've ever heard attached to a workplace or an office. Is this a that I don't know about?

Christina Khoo

I don't know. I think that's often something that I always like to push when talking to clients. Not just with JLL. Because even if you are not a client-facing company, or if our clients don't necessarily bring other people through their office, you want your colleagues and your staff to feel proud of where they work, which also adds to people coming into the office and seeing one another. So, great spaces bring collaboration and people coming through. I do feel like if you've got a great space people won't stop talking about it.

Rebecca Kent 

Absolutely. And views to die for, by the way.

Christina Khoo

Oh, yeah. I forgot that old thing. Just the Harbour Bridge and the Opera House. So you know …

Rebecca Kent 

The entire harbour! Circular Quay. You can see all the big cruise ships coming in.

Christina Khoo

The premium view is just incredible. You can't beat it.

Rebecca Kent 

A real drawcard, isn't it?

Christina Khoo

Absolutely. Every time we bring someone in, often the conversation stops and everyone just gravitates towards the windows and just starts taking photos. Everyone goes, ‘can I come here for New Year's Eve?’

Rebecca Kent 

Is there a list? Because I want to be on it. Well, we have beer taps, right?

Christina Khoo

We do! We a lot of the amenities. So, we have the barista, obviously. So we have the coffee and the other coffee machines. But we also have beer taps. We've got two on our concierge level, which is 27, and two on our social hub level, which is 26. We also have wine fridges. And of course we've got non-alcoholic drinks as well. But the beer taps on 26 were a big hit. We have Thirsty Thursdays every fortnight. The first one we had was crazy. Like, there were so many people. I don't think I've ever seen this many people within JLL just all coming over. The beer taps is interesting. I was a bit unsure about it to be honest. Because to me, sometimes you think it's a gimmick. And it's just, ‘Oh, we'll just provide it. We're a fun office’. But I think if it's used well, if it's used as part of your offering that you can offer the staff just to, you know, let their hair down. And I think it probably does help. Yeah, Thirsty Thursdays and Fridays.

Rebecca Kent 

Yeah, it is great. And again, the spaces are great. People grab a beer, and they have a chat to anyone and everyone. And there's a real hotel feel. And I suppose this links back to the hospitality offering that you were talking about. There's soft furnishings, and there's just nice finishes all around. That was the aim, right?

Christina Khoo

Absolutely. Offices aren't just your cubicle offices anymore. You don't have high barriers between where people sit anymore. Everything is very open. Whether or not people are for open plan, that’s a whole different conversation. But definitely the aspect of sharing and being very open was a big driver. The softer finishes add to that. So, especially when you come in on level 27, we've got the natural timbers that we're celebrating. Of course, sustainability was a part of that. So, trying to include as much of those materials as we could. We've got the feature ‘rammed earth’ render finished, which is Australian soil. So really trying to create a place. So, placemaking where we are, in Circular Quay, using natural finishes, a really big driver. Plus, softer and timeless finishes because we might be in here for 10-plus years, and you don't want to do too many things otherwise you might end up looking dated. But look, that's the nature of design. If things didn't get dated, I wouldn't have a job, if we want to be real about it.

Rebecca Kent 

There's been some strong involvement by a local Indigenous group, right?

Christina Khoo

Yes, so JLL partnered with Koskela, an Indigenous and sustainable furniture company. But they also partner with Indigenous artists to provide specialised – not just for businesses and companies, but for residential as well. We engaged them to facilitate the conversations we could have with potential artists. So we went through this process, we engaged Maddie Gibbs, who is a local First Nations woman. And she has provided a lot of different artwork in the City of Sydney as well. She came to us and provided us with, I guess, we gave her a brief and I said, ‘We want to celebrate place’. And she can probably explain a little bit better than I can. But she went through a whole process of explaining where Circular Quay is and was before Australia, pretty much. And the place where Circular Quay is, is where a lot of the women used to fish and feed their families. And so the artwork is really celebrating the fish nets that the First Nations women and people used to use. So that's on 27. Though, we might need to get a bit more information on that, because I feel like I'm not in a place to explain it.

Rebecca Kent 

Yes, no, absolutely. And if we don't already, we definitely will have some information on our website. Some of our videos. And perhaps a podcast.

So, I feel like we've been gushing a lot about the office. And it really is amazing. It sounds very promotional, but it genuinely is just a lovely place to be.

So I guess let's talk about some of the process, the design process. Can you give me an idea of like, how you came to … well, talk to me about the team involved. And how you gather ideas, how you consult with colleagues about what we want.

Christina Khoo

Yeah, so I would say if we were in a traditional setting, typically, the client, JLL, would produce the brief internally. You would then go out to market, engage a project manager, then they would go through the process of going through a design firm or smaller or another designer, and then you'd go through the process of nutting down, breaking down that brief, looking at the strategy, going through concept, which is the finishes, and then moving all the way through literally to delivery and construction. And then you would engage potentially another builder.

So, this is a bit interesting because we are all internal. So it was kind of a great process, because we designed it, we project managed it, we delivered it, and we built it pretty much. And so we were able to see it from inception. And that's something that as a designer, you don't often get to do, to peek through the veil of the conversations that happen in order to get to the final product. You often just get a brief and go, ‘These are the numbers, hit them’. Whereas I feel like we were given almost a seat at the table and they said, ‘Well, this is your office as well. What would you want to see from it?’

Of course, JLL also has a playbook that we follow. So, we've got a corporate real estate team based in Singapore which has a playbook. So, there's a lot of elements and standards that we have to adhere to. But that didn't mean that we couldn't add a bit of Sydney flavor to it, or Australian flavour to the space.

The process was a little bit interesting because it had its ups and its downs because you're often debating very heavily internally with your colleagues. Often if you're an external design firm, you don't see the nitty gritty of trying to fight for certain things or you don't see the conversations about budget.

Whereas it was very open book, we were very ‘One JLL’ I would say. You could see everything, you knew what was happening all the time. In saying that, everybody wanted to be involved. You know that term, ‘too many cooks in the kitchen’?. You could probably apply that to this and it might be slightly controversial to say, but I don't think it's that surprising, working on a project of this scale and this calibre. But I think as a designer, or if you're in project management, you learn how to wade through those conversations.

And, you know, design is great. Like, it's all about finding finishes and creating spaces, but it's also mainly about problem solving. So you're problem solving a brief, but you're also managing people's expectations and going, ‘I really love your idea about a vape room. Thank you so much. We'll park that and we'll get back to you.’

Rebecca Kent 

You are joking, right?

Christina Khoo

I'm not joking. That wasn't from anybody in senior management, that was in the survey. So yeah, it was definitely challenging because you had to ensure everybody's voice was heard, because that's important. You want to validate people's questions and decisions and opinions. But we also had a timeline to meet, we had a construction timeline to meet. And the fact that we delivered this, and we finished and we constructed within four months, I still don't even know how he did it. But we managed to pull it together.

Rebecca Kent 

It's insanely quick.

Christina Khoo

So four months for construction was insane. But props to our construction and our project management team. Like, honestly, they worked their butts off, and it looks fantastic.

Rebecca Kent 

Wow. I love I'd love to hear more of what came back in the survey.

Christina Khoo

A lot of it was, ‘I don't have enough focus rooms’. So at 420, there were a lot of focus rooms, but people tended to park in them a lot. A lot of the feedback was about lighting, ‘The lighting is terrible here’. Acoustics. ‘Acoustics could have definitely been improved from where we are’. The acoustics in this office are like beyond, we have double glazing, we've got slab-to-slab, which just means acoustics was extremely high priority for us. Because in the previous office, sorry to say, sometimes you could literally hear every single word everybody said, from another room. But it was generally things that we already knew that we had to address. A lot of it was like, ‘I want a place to bring a client’. Tick, we've done that. Then there was also, you got some outliers, like ‘Can we have a full gym in our space?’, which is what we do have in our Asian offices. So I can see where those requests came from. We unfortunately did not have the space to add a complete gym in this particular office. But there was a lot of, ‘It would be great to have more wellness spaces or wellness activities or, or things like that, something for your well-being’. But that could also be an operational, what could JLL offer in a new space that we could do. But the vaping room was definitely interesting. There was a request for that.

Rebecca Kent 

Yeah, well, horses for courses. So, the priorities then sounded like, as you say, acoustics, the wellness, somewhere attractive to bring your clients and appealing.

Christina Khoo

And alternative spaces to collaborate. We came from an office that was very heavily all workstation. There were a couple of areas where you could just have a casual conversation, but not really. And so I mean, collaboration these days is such a buzzword, but it really just means an alternative space that you and your team or you and another person can have a general conversation or a general meeting without having to formalise or book a meeting room. So that's what we did here. We've included a lot of communal tables and booth seats, which a lot of people would have seen in other fit-outs like that. And I think that's working. So on level 25, while it's our most dense floor, actually - we actually have more workstations on 25, we have the most collaboration spaces on 25 as well. So that's another destination point. We don't have booths with screens anywhere else. So we're making people walk up and down the stairs to these areas too.

Rebecca Kent 

So there's a strategy. As someone who produces content on the daily for JLL I'm really appreciating this media suite that we're sitting in here.

Christina Khoo

It’s very quiet in here.

Rebecca Kent

Well, you're talking about acoustics. This is pretty spectacular. How did we come to have a media suite?

Christina Khoo

So this is again, squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was a lot of push from some of the senior execs going, ‘Do we need a media room? I think we need a media room’. And we're like, ‘When you say media room, what do you believe is a media room?’ So really unpacking that and figuring out, do you want somewhere to film? Do you want somewhere to do podcasts like this? What is it? And it turns out, it was a multifunction room where you could do interviews, webinars, podcasts, the whole shebang. So we're like, ‘Okay, we understand. So we need a completely insulated acoustic room with great lighting and a green screen’. And like, this room has so many cameras in it, I don't even know where to look.

Rebecca Kent 

It really does. And look, I suppose you know, businesses have a public profile. And JLL is a people business and people who are profiled publicly want to look their best. And so I understand there was a particular push from someone who it found themselves being filmed a lot. It wasn't always very happy with

Christina Khoo

Which is true. I can totally appreciate it because, you know, I used to have a laptop where the camera was at the bottom of my screen and it just was awful. Like, during all of COVID lockdown, that’s what everyone saw, I looked like a thumb. I totally appreciate the comments going, ‘Why do we not have any rooms where we can adjust the camera so when I'm speaking I look good?’. And I'm like, ‘You know what? Fair enough’. I mean, could be selfish. For me, I'm incredibly vain. But no, it was really an adjustable space. So this room does it. You can either stand, you can sit, the cameras move, and it's great. But that also helped with our focus rooms as well, because all of our focus rooms are video call-capable, as in they have this screen that you can plug in, as well as a camera. But often the lighting in those rooms when there's a camera on a small room isn't great. So, and that was another thing, ‘Why do I look like Crime Stoppers in the previous fit-out?’. There's no light, you've got the light behind you. So you're just looking like an absolute ghost. So we wanted to address that and make sure everyone looked beautiful. So we did allow for a specialised custom-made LED strip that's very soft light, which people have quite appreciated I think. I have got good feedback from those lights.

Rebecca Kent 

Absolutely. Oh, we’re all a little bit vain, aren’t we?

Christina Khoo

Oh, absolutely.

Rebecca Kent

And here’s to not looking like a thumb or a criminal.

Christina Khoo

And often, let's be real, when you do Teams calls, you just look at yourself anyway. So, I'm like, ‘If you feel good then I guess you'd present good’.

Rebecca Kent 

It's always weird to know where you're supposed to fix your gaze on those Teams calls, isn’t it?

Christina Khoo

I know! But on that, so that tech was a mixture between our JLL tech team, as well as we worked with an audio visual consultant, as well as the internal feedback that we're getting. And then we had to go in and go, ‘Right, what's the best solution to bring all these teams together?’. The focus rooms are just one part and the media room is another part. But I really have to say, we really invested a lot into our tech for this fit-out. And I think the usability has improved so much from where we've come from. So I do appreciate that. I mean, of course, tech doesn't work all the time, but I think it's getting there. So we've got a media room on 25. And then we have a training room and 26. And then on 27 we have our presentation suite. So that's our beautiful, insane, gorgeous room with 485-inch touchscreens, amazing. I know this is a podcast, so I feel like I'm not explaining it very well. So if anyone would like a visit, please hit us up.

Rebecca Kent 

It's basically huge LCD screens, across the wall all, halfway from floor to ceiling.

Christina Khoo

And the room comes with its own digital coach. So there is a person that that works for JLL to help facilitate big presentations that you might have with clients or help facilitate how you move things from one screen to the other screen. One thing in that room was that the experience of the people in that room on Teams should try and be the same experience that the people get in person, which is quite difficult to achieve. But in this day and age, people are always going to be dialling in. And so the fourth screen particularly, is for the people that might be dialling in. And that's why it's angled the way it is. So the person that's presenting can be talking to those people on the screen, but can also be talking to the people in the room.

Rebecca Kent 

There's so much detail that's gone into that, it sounds a lot of work. So, what does this office design tell us about the way people want to work these days?

Christina Khoo

I think it goes back to, one, being houseproud (I like to say it) of people wanting to come into the office, because they just like it, it's a great space to be. I think providing people with spaces to do their different types of work styles. So being able to provide spaces for people to concentrate in, or collaborate in, or to contemplate, I think is pretty key. And I think we've achieved that. We’ve provide different spaces for our people.

Rebecca Kent 

I don't think we've even mentioned the word flexibility yet. Which is bonkers because it's also a big buzzword.

Christina Khoo

Absolutely, and a lot of the rooms that we designed are meant to be used for multiple uses, because spaces are limited with what we can and can't do. Built form and built rooms, once you build a room, you're often like, ‘Well, that's a meeting room. That's it’. Whereas you know, for example, the room that we're in now, yes, it's a media room, we're using it now for a podcast, but this can just be booked for a normal meeting room, which was how we got it across the line, because it's multi-use. The presentation suite upstairs, yes, it's a presentation suite, I can open those operable walls up, I can move the boardroom around, and suddenly I can have a cocktail function space if I wanted to, or I've got two separate meeting spaces with tables. So you kind of have to adapt. Otherwise, what happens is in spaces, you build a really cool room and no one ever uses it. Because it only has one use.

Rebecca Kent 

Yeah, definitely. And so let's talk about desk ratios, because I won't lie, if you're in any time after 8.30am or 9am. It's a bit of a bun fight.

Christina Khoo

Yes, it’s busy.

Rebecca Kent 

So, tell me about the desk ratios and how he came to decide what they would be.

Christina Khoo

It's funny, I was trying to remind myself of how we got to the numbers that we did. It's funny because JLL Sydney – our city office because we do have two other offices in Sydney, one North Sydney and the other in Parramatta – technically, we have 450 staff that would call this their main office. In saying that, whilst on paper, that is true, when we did a swipe card analysis at 420, the maximum number of people you would ever get on a busy day would be maybe to 280, or, between 280 and 300, unless there was a really big event on. And that's because people work differently. And people's work styles are different, and people's jobs are different. So often, there's a majority of our team that will work within our assets, there'll be a majority of team that work regionally or with our clients. So that's one thing to understand.

When I tell people there's 400 people, or 450 people, everyone freaks out, because the number of desks we have is 285. So when you do the math, that seems really dense, right? But we've worked it out. And plus we also did a survey. So we based it on our survey that we sent out to our entire New South Wales team. We said, ‘How many days on average would you say you come into the office?’ And a lot of the time the main, I would say, is probably two or three days a week.

And this is the always the hardest part. Do you design for the most dense day, which is often Mondays? Or do you design for, you know, a Wednesday or Thursday when it kind of pares down. So you have to find that middle ground. And what we realised is you have to design for the teams as well, because each team has their own days that they come in. And so the density between teams have to be different. So it wasn't a one-size-fits-all. We couldn't say all of JLL was at a density of one to seven or one to eight or whatever it is. I can't even tell you the exact number because every team is calculated differently. And we worked really closely with our consulting and strategy team, so Sonja Alexander, to try and nail this.

So you can see that on our agency floor nearly everybody's in all the time, so we have more workstations up there. Because we realised, well, we know, not realise, but we know, that they're in a lot of the time, maybe at least four days a week. Whereas as you go through level 26, and we with the mixture of the teams, which is where I am, we are more dense within our PDS team, so our project team, because a lot of the times we're out, we're out on site, or we're out doing that. And then on 25, again, it's a mixture of different teams. And so every density for each team is slightly different. And we've tried to accommodate for that.

So whilst we have 285 desks, when we say desks, that’s with monitors, we've also tried to add to those with our drop-in in touchdown spots. Because what we're also trying to encourage is if you're only here for two hours to see a client, why do you need a monitor? That's easy for me to say whether or not that's being, you know, encouraged, I think that will be an ongoing process. But really trying to go, ‘hey, you're in the … we've got visitors from Victoria coming through, do they really need a monitor if they’re meetings most of the day? Probably not’. So it is also a change management and changing kind of how we think, because from where we've come from, all we've had is desks, whereas now there are other places. But I always think, I do know that there will always be high peak days. But when we worked it out, if everyone was to come in, everyone would get a seat, but you would not necessarily get a monitor. And so that's how we've kind of balanced it.

It is it is hard. And often it is a fight. But I also think because we've just started we've come in and everyone's really excited to come in. So there's a higher peak of people coming through. If it was as per the survey, then I think we'd be okay. But I think we're getting a lot of visitors coming in to try and visit and have a peek. So that probably adds to it. I have seen people work in the breakout, which is great if you don't need a monitor. But time will tell if we need to add more. We’ll see. It’s always controversial, the numbers, and we don't have a desk booking system either at the moment. So we are first in best dressed.

Rebecca Kent 

And so what have you learnt as a designer about pulling this space together, that you might, for example, take to your other projects, future projects?

Christina Khoo

Hmm. That's a good question. Besides the uniqueness of having to manage expectations internally and working out who to talk to about certain things, I think that's important. I think, when whenever I design a space, I always try and figure out who is the decision maker? And how do I make that person happy? Right. But this was different, because there were a lot of decision makers.

Rebecca Kent 

Which ones mattered, though?

Christina Khoo                                                         

Ha! Dan, our CEO. I don't know, I feel whilst it was unique, because I am internal design, I treated it like any other client that I would. I feel like the same care that you put into this project, because it is our office is the same amount of care I put into any other client. So I don't know if there's anything crazy. I would say probably practically getting your team on board early. Which is what we did, which I thought was great. So like, you know, getting your consultants in early, working together very closely with the PMs, the project managers, I think having that great relationship, made this project. The success that it is, is because we work together so closely, we trusted each other. We trusted each other to have hard conversations, you know. Often we designers, we want everything and we have very expensive taste. And often we get told, ‘no’.

Rebecca Kent 

‘No’, or ‘How do we value engineer this?’

Christina Khoo

It's all about value engineering. It's the word that we all hate as designers, but you know, you’ve got to have those hard conversations sometimes because you’ve got to be realistic. And then you’ve got to know what to fight for, and what you have to let go sometimes. But anyway …

Rebecca Kent 

And so were there focus groups or steering committees that were consulted through the design process? Or was it purely the people involved in the construction and design?

Christina Khoo

We had one main steering committee, which were the main decision makers.

Rebecca Kent 

Over design, over budget?

Christina Khoo

Design, budget, direction on strategy. How many desks, for example. This is how many lockers that we say we have. Do you want to pay for this? This is what the staff want. Staff want more storage. Do you want us to remove a quiet room, or do you want a storeroom? Quiet room, or focus room. Not storeroom. Things like that. So that was our main steering committee. But we also had regular weekly meetings like you normally would. So regular project control groups: one, with our entire internal team, including our Work Dynamics JLL for JLL team. So that would be … JLL have our own internal facilities management team that look after our spaces, so they're all involved as well. And then we'll have a separate design meeting with all our consultants. So, our services guys, acoustics, mechanical, lighting, all that. And then then we bring it all together?

Rebecca Kent 

It's a village of people!

Christina Khoo

It is a lot of people. There have been a lot of people that worked on this office.

Rebecca Kent 

And what can you say about sustainability in the office? I believe it is particularly sustainable.

Christina Khoo

Yes. So the building itself, Salesforce tower, is a six star Green Star building, or about to be, or was designed to be. So often with Green Star, they let the space settle for a bit, and then the accreditation comes later. But it has been designed to those standards. So we are also a Six Star build. And we have gone for Platinum WELL, as well. So sustainability was the core. I mean, we as JLL, that is one of our key pillars. And so it was non-negotiable to even go down a star, for example. With that comes its cost implications. So it costs more, unfortunately, to be more sustainable. And that's something that you have to build in. For example, furniture has to be sourced sustainably. But every element of each furniture piece needs to be accredited, for example. So, the chair that you're sitting on has been GECA (Good Environmental Choice Australia) accredited, which is a Green Star tick of approval. It all counts to this big Excel spreadsheet that I don't understand. But it all adds to it.

Rebecca Kent 

So someone told me there's no formaldehyde in the furniture. I don’t even know what that means …

Christina Khoo

Green Star has his whole list of items that you need to tick and each furniture supplier will need to ensure that where this chair has come from … it even goes down to how it's been delivered. Do you have carbon offsets of XYZ?  Or things like that. All the way down to, ‘Do you recycle your packaging at the end of it?’ So it all comes together. I'm not across all the nitty gritty but it was definitely a challenge to try and find furniture that, one, suited our design aesthetic, but also met the sustainability and Green Star requirements. Because it costs suppliers to have GECA, or it costs suppliers to have these accreditations. So it means the cost of the furniture item increases and there's only a certain amount of … or only a certain pool, that have the accreditation, which limited what we could and couldn’t choose. But we worked closely with our suppliers to make sure we tried to get the best. Most of it, if not all, is accredited furniture. But that's only a sliver of it. That's only a tiny bit that adds to the Green Star.

So that's our furniture finishes. It also comes down to the way that you insulate your mechanical, or it comes down to acoustics. Acoustics is something that is a green star item. It comes down to the trash and the construction. How much waste are you producing and how much is recycled. So I'm pretty sure we did 99% recycling on our construction site. It comes down all the way down to our subcontractors. So it's a pretty big achievement that we have it, or that we’re about to get it. I'm gonna say we'll get it. It'll come.

Rebecca Kent 

So how do you feel when you look around the office?

Christina Khoo

It's kind of surreal because I get to see the office that we designed in action. And you get to see it every day. This is so lame, but during construction, we would visit every week, and the staircase was being done and you weren't allowed to walk on it, because of health and safety issues, and it's all being boarded up. And then they unveiled it. And they were like, ‘Okay, you can walk down the stairs now’. And that was the first time we walked down the stairs that we designed. And I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I did this’. Well, not me, but you know, we designed this space. And I was like, ‘This is so cool’. And I don't know whether it's because we had a really hard day. And I was like, ‘I can't believe a staircase is gonna make me cry’.

Like, this is amazing’. So I was just so proud of the team that pulled it off. I was like, ‘This is great’. So I am excited to be in here. It's a very unique space, or a unique time for me. But then also everybody knows that we designed it. So if there's any issues ... People will be like, ‘Do you know where the tea towels are?’ I’m like, ‘I can definitely tell you where they are, but I didn't really put them there’. Because people know that we did we did the fit out. I guess it's a good thing. So I feel incredibly proud and tired the same time.

Rebecca Kent 

Congratulations. It's so lovely to be in this space. It’s actually such a good demonstration of what we can do as a company. I hope you don't get too much stick from colleagues about missing tea towels.  Well done. Lovely to chat. Thanks for your time, Christina.

Christina Khoo

No worries.

Rebecca Kent (Conclusion)

Thanks for listening to my chat just there with Christina Khoo. If you enjoyed it, do share it with your friends or colleagues. You can also find out more about Christina, and get in touch with her, by hopping on over to jll.com.au and typing Perspectives podcast in the search bar.